Deep down, are are all Mexican men really this horrible?

[Anne Nicolai]

From Octavio Paz, "Mexico's foremost writer and critic," in his Nobel Prize-winning essay collection The Labyrinth of Solitude:

"Our sense of inferiority—real or imagined—might be explained at least partly by the reserve with which the Mexican faces other people and the unpredictable violence with which his repressed emotions break through his mask of impassivity."

Paz explains that for Mexicans, "the ideal of manliness is never to 'crack,' never to back down. Those who 'open themselves up' are cowards. ... Women are inferior beings because, in submitting, they open themselves up. Their inferiority is constitutional and resides in their sex, their submissiveness, which is a wound that never heals."

"To the Mexican there are only two possibilities in life: either he inflicts the actions implied by chingar [violation] on others, or else he suffers from them himself at the hands of others.... But the singularity of the Mexican resides, I believe, in his violent, sarcastic humiliation of the Mother and his no less violent affirmation of the Father."

THIS is what constitutes a Mexican man?

Am I pitifully naive to think there might be a decent, respectful Mexican man (in other words, an exception to the rule) with whom I might have a kind and loving relationship in future? Or should I pack up now and move back to the States where at least women are viewed with some semblance of equality and where men don't abdicate their own will and intelligence to some cultural Stage 3 rapids of rage, or to some historically-dictated national inferiority complex?

What do you think? Octavio Paz is a powerful voice, and he knows more than I do, but.... Am I nuts to love Mexico? Even crazier to think I might (once again, at some point) love a Mexican man?

[Gregory R Gunter]

Annie, my friend, does this mean you've given up entiely on American men..?! :)

[Anne Nicolai]

It means nothing at all in relation to American men. In fact, I am opposed to painting any nationality, race, etc., with a broad brush—which is why I'm so horrified by what I'm reading in the Octavio Paz essays. If insecurity, dishonesty, unpredictably violent behavior, and disrespect toward women are woven into the DNA of every Mexican man—well, first of all, how can that be true? Yet I fell in love with a Mexican man who turned out to fit every detail of Paz's description. I was fooled. That's frightening. So I'm really not focusing on American men here at all, and I've made no decisions one way or another. I'm just shocked and disappointed to learn that in the country where I've chosen to live (because, for one thing, I was so enamored with the people!), there could be a general acceptance of misogyny among men—and an acceptance of side effects like lying and cheating and beating. I wasn't expecting Mexican culture to mirror that of the independence- and gender equality-oriented United States, but I wasn't expecting to encounter this hot, slimy underbelly either. I guess I've had my head in the sand.

[Anne Nicolai]

At 6:23pm on September 20, 2009, Francisco Escobar said…

I prefer not to go with what some lonely untouched poet has to say about his dwellings on lonliness........I have my own space of recluseness........and I deal with reality.....

[BOBBY COX]

Even if its true there are always exceptions to the rule. People are too complex to be painting them all with the same brush. Its like rape...when it happens a man does it...but not all men... Im sure there are many (like myself) who find it loathesome and disgusting. Why do they do it? Too much testerone?? Mental depravity??
Mexicos face of machismo is changing, there are shelters for battered women now, 40 years ago there were none. The more educated a person is the more likely they are to frown on such behavior...everyone has to be judged on their merits...one at a time..otherwise its prejudicial stereotyping.
There will always be self centered egotistical men who think only of their own hedonistic beliefs, but I don't think society per se accepts them.
I once met a man who started bragging to me about his "conquests", I have 3 wives he told me...I told him..."Yes, I know, and none of them are satisfied."

[Anne Nicolai]

Bobby,

Thank you! I don't want to believe what I'm hearing from this most renowned of writers, but with his credibility (a Nobel Prize for Literature!), his words, and the research behind them, are difficult to dismiss. I hope that Mexicans are, in general, are becoming more educated.

But why should I stay here and wait until some guy 15 years younger than me, and a participant in some sort of new societal perspective (IF one should develop) moves to San Miguel de Allende, a town in which most of the Mexican residents I've met have lived all their lives, and to which newcomers are most likely ex-pats, not Mexicans. It's not like there are jobs here. It's not a sophisticated place. And when any "new man" comes to visit, let alone to take up residence, he is attacked by the gringas like flies on honey. I won't participate in that. Ergo I feel there's little hope for a relationship here for me, and that makes me sad.

I want to live here. San Miguel might be a bit stuck in the Revolutionary years, but at the same time there is great interest in things that interest me: organic farming, green energy, homeopathy, and other fields. Of course it is also a beautiful city. I find myself welling up with tears almost daily at the sight of some unbelievably perfect sunset, or a family walking home from school (mom, dad, kids in their uniforms with little backpacks, all walking together--you just don't see that in the States!), or an octogenarian in his cowboy hat, sitting on the stoop, watching the passers-by, saying hello to me and my little dog, smiling so big that I could tell a dentist which teeth are missing...I treasure these moments, and I don't think they would happen just anywhere.

My fear is that, as an American accustomed to complete independence and yet formed by a Puritan ethic that values equality, respect and monogamy, I may not find my equal here.

I may not find a Mexican man in small-town, traditional San Miguel who doesn't lie! Who doesn't cheat and think it's perfectly okay! Who doesn't physically attack me like my Mexican boyfriend did for taking a photo that he didn't like.

Octavio Paz describes exactly what my ex-boyfriend was like. And I thought he was a good man! But no. He could not handle my intelligence, my capabilities, and even, as it turns out, my love and generosity. I feel sorry for him because he inflicted bruises and thereby destroyed a future that would have been pretty nice for him, I think! (Our two-week vacation to the U.S. and Canada was lovely--note that I paid every expense, plus I bought $1,000 worth of clothes and gifts for him. That's a Mexican phenomenon, I think--men taking money and whatever else they can get from women. They think we're stupid to give it, and they think it's funny. They will take until we wake up and say, "Hey! How come you never even said happy birthday, let alone gave me a gift???")

That's my experience, unfortunately. I fell in love with a man who is smart but uneducated; well traveled but, inexplicably, still bigoted; close to my age chronologically but immature in every other way. He had no father after age 18 (and even that may be a lie, who knows?). I've met his mother--she doesn't speak to him because she feels that he betrayed her. He says everything that's gone wrong in his life is someone else's fault. This is the Mexican as Paz describes him!

Please, God, let there be some exceptions to the rule. And I pray, too, for the ability to understand and not to judge because I have chosen to live here. I am not in a position to demand compliance with some sort of rulebook of my own creation. But I pray that there are men in this Mexian world who can respect and admire and support a woman who will walk BESIDE them, not behind them, in the mud created by their dust and spit.

I've gotten muddy. I've scrubbed myself clean. Now I seek understanding. And, yes, I seek a partner. I want someone who is not from my country, who can teach me and learn from me, and who sees his reflection in the mirror as a human, not a god; as flawed, not perfect; and as lovable, truly lovable, not basura--not in denial of his roots but embracing all the chaos of Mexican history but tempering that with discipline, with study, with professionalism, and with modernity so that we can have a LIFE and not just a night at the bar.

Again, I think you for responding to my post because clearly this book, "The Labyrinth of Solitude," has got me riled up, and it's got me thinking (which is not a bad thing!). And now I'm smiling because any man reading this has got to be thinking, "Good Lord! Who could stand to listen to HER night and day?" But I don't go on like this all the time.

I want to live in San Miguel. I'm happy here. I feel that I'm in no position to argue with a writer of the stature and experience of Octavio Paz--yet I'm rebelling. I am a toddler having a tantrum. I just won't believe it's true! I won't! I won't!

I welcome more of your comments, and those of others. And, by the way, if there are men who have been frustrated with Mexican women, here's what Señor Paz says about them in his essay Mexico and the United States:

"Because of the Mexican woman's Hispano-Arabic and Indian heritage, her social situation is deplorable..." but, he says, basically she accepts this. So gringos beware: if this is true, they will love you for your money, your connections, and maybe your ability to make her an American citizen. (Of course it's telling that I had to comb the entire 398-page book to find a reference to women.)

¡Ai! Ya termino!

Anne

[Arturo Wagner]

Hello, Anne.

I have just finished reading your post. I found it very interesting. Not all Mexican men are horrible. My wife doesn't find me too horrible, anyway. While I simpathyze with your plight, it seems that you are looking for love in all the wrong places. Let me give you some hints. I just might help you out.

I can go on and on on the subject, I can give you a few guidelines. Have a friend with a stable marriage introduce you to someone. Decent men all have some common characteristics:

1. all have some form of gainful employment.
2. are honest and forthright
3. Are corteous to women
4. have respect for their elders and the authorities.
5.are kind and patient with children
6. look and act nice and neat.

If youhappen to find some man that you like, size him up first. If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Best regards

Arturo wagner
Navojoa, Sonora

[Anne Nicolai]

Thank you, Arturo, and welcome to my friends list!

I'm smiling at the thought of finding "a friend with a stable marriage," as rare of a commodity as that is, but I do know a few! :)

Who can explain attraction? The man with whom I spent the past year does not measure up to ANY of the criteria you mention--standards which are perfectly reasonable and which I normally follow, but....

I told myself not to be judgmental about this man just because I grew up in a loving family and he didn't (which has all kinds of implications that should have sent me running on Day 1), or just because he doesn't wear nice clothes (or didn't, that is, until I bought him a wardrobe in the States)--I'm not one to look to someone else for my financial security, and I figure, to each his own as far as the clothes one puts on.

What I did was to abandon my own standards, many of which are reflected in your list. Why? Because I'm in another country. Because I am an adventurous person who can see something positive in just about everyone, and because, I'll admit, I'm a bit of a caretaker. (Female, straight-A student, eldest child of two teachers, high responsibility quotient, and a mother myself!) So I decided to ignore the bad, enjoy the good, and...I put up with a lot.

I'm so glad to meet you because it's energizing to know there are happy, healthy relationships going on out there! My parents are a great example, too--still together and still the best of friends as they approach their 48th wedding anniversary!

How odd to be exchanging all of this information and advice in a public setting...yet I do believe that when one student raises her hand, there are others in the classroom who are wondering the very same thing.

I'm going to read The Labyrinth of Solitude again after a bit, and see if I've missed something. Meanwhile, if you know a wonderful (and truly single) man, tell him the weather is fine in San Miguel de Allende, and that you know a great tour guide! :)

Anne

[Mercy Stirling de Duenas]

There is a book called " Distant Neighbors" - that is more recent and a gringo's take on Mexico and the culture (mostly Mexico City) - I found it to be more updated - but I agree with Arturo - there is a UNIVERSAL man that exists in all countries..are they easy to find - no...but do they exist - yes!!

[Mercy Stirling de Duenas]

Wow...when I read that I was thinking the same!! horrrrible...

Well, I can tell you that Octavio Paz wrote that a LONG TIME AGO (check the date) and that Mexican men are NOT that way anymore. Obviously there are social classes and education levels that will be the exception. I have lived in Mexico most of my life (1967) and have met many Mexicanos..obviously mostly professionals.

If you read the stereotypes of ANY CULTURE you will find that THAT is exactly what they are stereotype, generalizations. The modern Mexican man is dealing with wives that work, kids in daycare and internet. They are not isolated anymore - and are changing - just as American men have had to change!!!

If you are looking for a Mexican man to love - I suggest you go where the type of Mexican man you are attracted to hangs out - for example - if you like Art or music kind of guys!! Galleries , etc. If you want a macho Mexicano that Octavio Paz was talking about - go to a small town - where the Charros hang out!!

Hope this helps!! I have been married 38 years to the most wonderful Mexican man - he never was a typical Mexicano just like I never was a typical gringa. The stereotype of a gringa in Mexico is HORRRRIBLE.....so it goes BOTH WAYS!

Hope this helps!!

[Anne Nicolai]

Mercy,

What a great discussion this is!

First of all, I do consider Octavio Paz to be a modern writer, since the essays I'm reading were written in the late '50s through 1975, and because the Nobel Prize for Literature was given in the 1990s. Also, he is speaking about the immutable traits of a culture, those characteristics that we all have, "marking" us with the flavors and sensibilities of the history, and even of the legends, belonging to the place we're born and raised. All humans fight, love, eat, sleep and die, but with different deep-seated motivations.

Having said that, I'm guessing that today's anthropologists can point out many examples of the increasing pace of change and growth in societies around the world these past few decades, and perhaps there's been more evolution in Mexico and in other formerly "third world" countries than in the U.S. Perhaps there is hope that I am not, as Arturo suggests above, "looking for love in all the wrong places."

I think the reason I'm reacting so strongly to the Paz book is that it woke me from the stupor that I must have been in when I allowed myself to be charmed by a naco! And I must say, I'm surprised to have met so many uneducated, unsophisticated men in San Miguel when it is known as a center for arts and culture, and in fact as a "mystical" place. I don't dislike these guys, and I mean no disrespect--I've got pals who are charros, and they're wonderful, generous, fun-loving people! I'm just surprised. I thought this town would be different.

Of course you're right about the reputation of the gringa here in Mexico. As a group, we deserve a lot of the bad rap that we get. I'm not innocent by any means, having partied my way through several resort cities in Mexico before settling in San Miguel. But when it comes to basic values, I do not share those that Octavio Paz insists "define the Mexican." In the end, no one is going to write of Americans that it's in our DNA to lie, to desire redemption through victimization, to consider women forever inferior to men, etc., the way Octavio Paz writes about his own people. I figure he knows more about "the Mexican" than I do.

Oh! And I would have dismissed what seem like preposterous notions had the book not been recommended to me by an educated architect from Mexico City, who works for a company in Texas and who told me that I wouldn't truly understand Mexicans until I'd read A Labyrinth of Solitude. If I had picked up the book on my own, I think I would have put it down at page three, but I considered the source.

Speaking of sources, you're the second person to have recommended Distant Neighbors--I must read that one. I expect it will help to cheer me up! Thanks again for writing...from one atypical gringa to another, salud!.

Anne

[Cory Dudley]

I think you have been looking in the wrong places... There is a Bravado in Mexican men, but a lot of that depends on where you are located in Mexico.

If you were looking for a Gringo in say "Podunk, Ark" you might get the same results.
Cory

[Anne Nicolai]

Haaaa ha ha, Cory, you're right...maybe San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, is the equivalent of Podunk, Arkansas. A magazine publisher told me just the other day that people in his city of Querétaro generally "think of the way business is done in San Miguel as a joke"!